you're brainwashed about the Palestinian/Israeli issue. to say this:

"For a perfect example of why no compassionate person should ever consider giving fiscal, moral, politcal, legal, or even rhetorical support to the Palestinian cause, just read this, and consider that the Palestinians believe that Israeli children are legitimate "military" targets, because they could one day grow up to serve in the Israeli Army."

you express a wholesale ignorance as if you've never freed yourself from the psychic leash of CNN, Fox , seeBS etc. this is the most heavily denied subject in the US because Israel is umbilically tied to US tax money.

see: http://ifamericansknew.org

http://jewsagainstzionism.com/links.htm

and yes, the clear channel article is online. that's what i'm doing here, was looking for it--this:
http://www.peak.org/mailing-list/archive/grc/msg04166.html

here's a discussion i got in about suicide bombing with someone else. it includes another segment from the readings in that same issue of Harpers, beneath which i'll paste another woman's reply that adds further perspective. sorry for the overload. and this below is an email exchange with the top being the reply to what's beneath, until the last bit which is a replay following all this immediately below:

there'll be no capiche until we're done talkin', y'hear?!

after i clik'ed to send this last night and settled down i got to
thinking some. then i did a little reading and found direct support
material in maybe a not so likely place.

i think i argued from not a good an angle as that if i'd stayed on
choice. the Palestinian people are, yes, free to choose. But Israel
has narrowed their choices into a VERY tightly compressed corner. So
it is Israel then that creates the motivation in the Palestinians.
that's a direct link too, not a leap, by any stretch.

After reading the great article on how Clearchannel Programs America
last night in the December Harpers, i flipped thru the readings and
came upon this:

"ALL THE NECESSARY TOOLS
The following suicide notes were left by Japanese schoolchildren, aged
ten to fifteen, who killed themselves within the last several years.
Some of them met in suicide chat rooms, which are becoming
increasingly popular in Japan."

It is clear from the notes, which i'll paste below, that the main
source motivating these children to suicide was "schoolyard" bullies.
And who are clearly the most bullied and openly bullied, humiliated
people in the world? Yes, the Palestinians by the Israelis.
Interestingly, the state played a supporting role in giving these
small children more homework than their parents got from their work,
as one child complains in great detail. here are the letters with URL
at bottom:

translated from the Japanese by Patrick Luhan.

Left by a ten-year-old boy who killed himself after being harassed for
having an american father:
My blood is tainted and corrupt. I will fly from my apartment window,
fall, and die. Why have I not died already? Because I have been
waiting for tomorrow.

Left by a fourteen-year-old boy who hung himself:
I've always had my money taken from me. I could never have enough
money to meet their demands, so they would hold me underwater until I
agreed to do what they wanted. They'd always make me run errands for
them. They forced me to dye my hair once. Getting bullied has become
harder and harder, and I cannot go on with this life. Hopefully my
death will excuse my failure in this life.

Left by a fifteen-year-old boy who hung himself in his family's garden:
I am already tired.

Left by a fourteen-year-old boy who hung himself:
When I was in seventh grade, I was always bullied. Now in eight grade,
the bullying has become worse. They make fun of me, throw things at
me, kick me, hit me, and do other violent things. It was a waste of
time complaining to the teacher when I couldn't tolerate it. They'd
throw my textbooks at me and harass me for telling the teacher. I have
no friends who sympathize with me in class. My close friends in clubs
outside school have learned to hate me, too. I'm too tired to hold out
any longer. The world's not right for me.

One of three suicide notes left by a fourteen-year-old girl before she
threw herself off a high building:
I've been bullied with words and violence almost every day, but no
one's been nice enough to even notice my situation. I've been hurt
every day with words like " dirty" from all the boys in my class. They
will finally get what they want and I will die. I can't take this life
anymore. Mama and Papa, I'm really sorry, but I'm finished. I'm afraid
of death, but I know this will be a lifelong torment. I'm very sorry.
Goodbye forever.

Left by a fourteen-year-old girl who hung herself:
Ive continued to be bullied by the boys in my class. They say
humiliating things. I can't help how I was born. Their bullying became
too much, though. I've had so many humiliating experiences whenever
any of the girls ask me, "did you dye your hair?" They only want to
laugh at me too. I hate everybody in my class.

Left by an eleven-year-old girl and an eleven-year-old boy,
respectively, who met in a suicide chat room and both hung themselves:
I think I might die now. I've prepared for all the necessary tools.
Bye-bye.

I don't understand why I have to study more hours than adults work
while also going to school and cram sessions after school. There are
many times when I want to die. Over the course of two days, an adult
works twenty hours and rests twenty-eight. But children like me study
for twenty-seven and a half hours while resting for only twenty and a
half hours. I have no idea why adults have more free time than kids.
Homework is like a mountain. I'll have an eleven-page assignment this
weekend and fourteen pages of arithmetic homework. I already want to
quit school. I want to be free, like a fish.

Harper's Magazine, New York NY www.harpers.org, 01. December 2003

http://www.helnwein.com/presse/international_press/artikel_1423.html

may we all one day break free like fish, but into life, not death, Nick

Staci wrote:
> Palestinians are absolutely struggling for survival -- but that does
not
> excuse suicide and murder of innocents carried out by a few of the
militant
> organizations there. I understand where the rage and hopelessness
comes
> from, and I also understand how intolerant religious organizations
feed off
> of it. Resistance to brutal oppression is of course natural; "using
their
> bodies to deliver crude bombs" is nothing of the kind IMO (meaning
not a
> legitimate act of resistance, just wholly destructive). If it was, it
> would have happened in this particular case long before the first
such act
> in (I think) the mid-nineties. Besides being morally opposed to it, it
> harms the whole Palestinian population (spiritually and because Israel
> collectively punishes them all for the acts of a few) and is also a
> horrible tactic for gaining support -- it makes it very easy for the
> unaware to think that Palestinians "hate Jews" in lieu of what's really
> going on. A comparison could sort of be made to anarchists, who still
> suffer from the reputation from some who many years ago resorted to
> "propaganda by deed". If you don't want to question or deplore the
methods
> of the meek, that's your right. But I'll retain mine to live and think
> according to my own conscience. Capiche? :-)
>
> Staci
>
>
> At 04:49 AM 3/25/04 +0000, nasf_reachout wrote:
>
> >i'm not sure exactly what we're disagreeing on here. i agree people
> >have a choice. but i'm not sure if i'm speaking or would, if i weigh
> >it carefully, speak in terms of 'justifying'. with the ongoing
> >pressure and violence, closure, wall going up, settlements acting as
> >walls, imprisoning our Pals, it is exactly as if their survival, as a
> >people togther there is up against the wall.
> >it is natural they come
> >out fighting and with no tech, not just low tech, having to use their
> >bodies to deliver crude bombs--it's natural. there's no need to
> >justify nothing. it's just there and if it can't be understood,
> >there's something, brainwash, denial whatever, standing in the way.
> >
> >i don't believe we should buy in, to any degree, questioning or
> >deploring the methods of the meek in their resisting superpower
> >terror. what everybody is doing, from liberals thru to anarchists are
> >extressing their resistance to this madness of gratuitous overkill,
> >naked aggressive overrun of peoples everywhere, here included, to
> >whatever ever degree that feels comfortable, as per need. i only wish
> >those more free to act would do so, taking risks ahead of need,
> >before no one will be free enough to resist their momentous onslaught
>>>>>>>>

It is the age old wisdom of not cornering someone with nothing left
to lose.

I always told my kids that. One day my son got popped in the nose.
The school wanted to know if I wanted to press charges. My son had
the audacity to ridicule a girl on the bus who was always ridiculed
by others. When her brother punched him, I felt it was the least he
deserved.

So, I would say that in my son's case the stakes were not so high,
and he learned a good lesson, but in the case of nations and loss of
life, it feels different.

Do not mistake my words as a claim that I know what could be done or
should be done, or should have been done, but it all spirals out of
control.

I wish the rest of the world really cared to solve the problem, and I
wish that Israel did not think it deserved Palestine to the detriment
of the Palestinians.

What we need is an army for peace that would swoop in and force a
solution with those willing to solve the problem, and there are
plenty of Jewish folks who wish so too along with the Palestinians.
I had a professor who went back to Palestine in the mid 90's. He was
an awesome guy, and I wonder if he is ok.

You make a very good point about choices and the narrowing of
choices. This is also an argument made by others who talk about
marginal groups. You can probably find a lot of reading and
literature on this very topic.

Am I really free if my choices are narrowed by poverty, war, and
other factors. I'd like to see this discussed here.

Mags

Posted by: nick on March 25, 2004 10:27 PM

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